Ethics In Psionics

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Log from #Classroom on Monday, April 1, 2013 at 8PM EST: “Ethics In Psionics”, hosted by TashRikil:
[18:01:05] <TashRikil> tonight’s class, is of course, Ethics in Psionics.
[18:02:06] <TashRikil> now, i realize that sounds boring. it isnt. ethics is important. they define the choices we make every day. it’s not a lofty sort of high minded thing. it’s very boots on the ground, and issues can get muddy.
[18:02:29] * DragonAtma nods
[18:03:13] <TashRikil> the ethics in this community, and i am well aware that they cannot be imposed from outside very well or for very long… we all play a part in developing them as well as getting folks to conform to them.
[18:03:15] <DragonAtma> it’ll also affect how other psions will see you — and that can matter as much or more than in mundane matters.
[18:04:42] <TashRikil> specific instances cloud the issue sometimes. it’s easy to miss the forest for the trees. so i’m going to lay down a few girders here, rock solid things that we should and shouldnt be doing. i’ll take questions on specifics, if you have any.
[18:05:51] <Zephyr> before I go, can I ask you about stuff regarding the logs of this class later, after I’ve had a chance to read them?
[18:05:55] <TashRikil> i’ll point out now that i dont want to be preaching into a vaccuum, in spite of the lecture format. PLEASE BUG ME if you have questions
[18:06:01] <TashRikil> sure.
[18:06:05] <Zephyr> alright, cool
[18:06:09] <Zephyr> thank you
[18:06:12] <Aue> So will it be a personal relation between ethics and Psionics or will it be more towards ethics of the group and Psionics? And if both, in what proportions would they blend?
[18:06:16] <Zephyr> gtg now, have fun with the class!
[18:06:59] <TashRikil> these are going to be the ethics of the group i am going to try and define for us, and a basic set of behavior standards all psions that choose to come here will be expected to meet.
[18:07:28] <Aue> Ok thanks 🙂 No questions.
[18:07:33] <TashRikil> this isnt complicated, and i have no intention of making it so.
[18:07:55] <Zajman> do tell when wel get to the part of asking questions 🙂
[18:07:58] <TashRikil> we conform to basic standards of nettiquette while in here.
[18:08:04] <DragonAtma> back, sorry
[18:08:22] <DragonAtma> as the guy who runs training every friday, I just may pitch in somewhat as well.
[18:08:49] <TashRikil> ie anything you say in public can be copy pasted anywhere. dont say something here you dont want to appear on the internet somewhere. or everywhere.
[18:10:23] <TashRikil> anything you say in private PLEASE KEEP IT PRIVATE, unless you have the other person’s permission, or law enforcement requires it, or the ops need it for a clearly defined administrative reason: ie we need to decide if we should ban this person.
[18:10:50] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[18:11:32] <DragonAtma> ideally, everyone would behave and nobody would ahve to be punished. In practice, that doesn’t happen. :/
[18:12:02] <TashRikil> we do not discuss illegal things in here like drug use, illegal flavors of porn, etc. nor is this a place for pictures you would not want to be seen at work… or again, ALL OVER THE INTERNET
[18:12:49] <TashRikil> PM is your business, we dont care, please allow us to keep it that way. 😛 understood?
[18:13:27] <Aue> Yes, but what about actions which are not noticeble via the IRC channel?
[18:13:36] <Aue> Like an energy attack, draining and so forth?
[18:13:49] <TashRikil> getting there. nettiquette first though.
[18:14:07] <Forge> i just realized nettiquette wasnt a typo
[18:14:25] * TashRikil sighs
[18:14:37] <TashRikil> you can google this. server rules are few and clearly posted.
[18:14:57] <TashRikil> we keep them that way on purpose, to make life easy for everyone
[18:15:26] <TashRikil> your channel, your rules, as long as you keep the server rules enforced.
[18:16:42] <TashRikil> of course, no hacking, no ban evading. will a rule stop everyone from doing this? no. hence we enforce them vigorously.
[18:18:31] <TashRikil> ethics in psionics specifically are pretty easy.
[18:19:37] <TashRikil> the same rules that apply to real life apply to psionics. if you wouldnt want someone breaking into your house and stealing from you, you probably wont like it if they break into your mind and steal your energy.
[18:20:13] <DragonAtma> Also, keep in mind that some people here are pretty talented at psionics.
[18:20:24] <TashRikil> no. really? 😛
[18:20:27] <DragonAtma> Even if they don’t comment on in-channel psionics, it doesn’t mean that they didn’t noitice it.
[18:20:48] <DragonAtma> so “mnot noticeable” psionics may turn otu to be very noticeable
[18:21:30] <TashRikil> energy left laying around is fair game. energy you have to siphon off someone is not, if that is how you feed. you need permission from the people you feed from. simple as that
[18:22:38] <Aue> What if the process of feeding is unconscious? Related more with a natural reaction of energy flow from high to low rather then gathering energy from outside to within (stealing).
[18:23:08] <DragonAtma> if the process is unconscious, then talk to the ops
[18:23:13] <DragonAtma> they may be able to help you.
[18:23:45] <TashRikil> tolerance will be made for abilities not under your control.
[18:24:06] <Aue> Ok.
[18:24:15] <TashRikil> talk to us. we will teach you to control it if you are having that problem. we realize not everything is under conscious thought in here.
[18:24:29] <DragonAtma> Remember, we want to help you.
[18:24:40] <Zajman> what about sigils ? hows ethics on that matter?
[18:24:49] <TashRikil> getting there.
[18:24:55] <Zajman> kk
[18:25:19] <Aue> Tash, Atma, it’s not MY problem, it was a question from the WHAT-IF basket, please do make a notice of the difference.
[18:25:44] <TashRikil> the basic rule is you are free to act as long as you do not act to limit another’s freedom. draining them, attacking them, etc, is a bad plan. get permission and announce before you do things. please.
[18:25:57] <DragonAtma> aue: true, but someone else may have that problem.
[18:26:04] <DragonAtma> And now that they heard that, it just may help them.
[18:26:24] <TashRikil> Aue, i’ve seen that one before. i’m not offended. i’ve even seen people falsely accused of unconscious feeding. just laying down the basics here.
[18:26:56] <DragonAtma> and remember
[18:27:04] <TashRikil> no question about ethics will get me angry in this forum. just saying.
[18:27:08] <DragonAtma> just as your asking may help someone els,e we may get someone asking soemthign that helps you 😉
[18:28:03] <Aue> What if the person has multiple personalities?
[18:28:36] <Zajman> i can tell you from autopsy , if someone has , he doesnt know about that
[18:28:51] <TashRikil> then we will try, as we are able, to deal with each personality separately to the extent that we can. physical limitations exist though.
[18:29:53] * Zajman stuffs his mouth with some cheesecake to shut up for a while
[18:30:42] <Aue> What if the person has a very negative aura which corrupts the surrounding people, knows well of this situation but takes no conscious action to deal with the issue? Claiming that their hands are clean, for they did no direct nor consciously intended harm.
[18:30:49] <TashRikil> ie, if it gets to the point where we have to ban one of the personalities or g-line them, the good guys and the bad guys share one computer. it’s unfortunate but necessary.
[18:31:07] <DragonAtma> if that happens, the staff will notice and will take action for the good of everyone.
[18:31:42] <TashRikil> aue, such a situation would be negligence and they need to take steps to improve themselves, prevent themselves from doing things to others unconsciously, or there will be consequences.
[18:32:33] <TashRikil> knowing that you do something unconsciously and taking no steps to prevent it from happening with or without your knowledge is the equivalent of doing it deliberately
[18:32:40] <DragonAtma> And it’s entirely possible for that to occur, Aue; it’s possible that Typhoid Mary thought she was never sick with, well, typhoid.
[18:33:00] <TashRikil> she didnt. for a very VERY long time. and killed a couple families from it
[18:33:05] <Zajman> we re talking all the time about life to life situations or mostly situations in psionisc institute OEC?
[18:33:17] <Aue> What were the most difficult cases of netiquette-breaking you had to deal with and how did you deal with the issue? (@Atma & @Tash)
[18:33:27] <DragonAtma> we’re talking about PI situations, but real life is useful for comparison.
[18:33:42] <TashRikil> we are talking specifically about PI. i’d like to think these rules apply outside of here but i am under no delusions
[18:34:00] <DragonAtma> Aue: unfortunately, that incident is not public unless adara says so. Sorry 🙁
[18:34:05] <TashRikil> Aue, that is an ops only issue and you’re asking for specifics. HELL NO. sorry.
[18:34:50] <Aue> Then a case study, as a simulation of what-if.
[18:34:59] <Forge> oh well ill ask later, cuz im curious about that
[18:35:06] <Aue> Or… no more questions xD
[18:35:14] <TashRikil> i’d rather not do a case study.
[18:35:18] <TashRikil> we dont have the time.
[18:35:21] * DragonAtma nods
[18:35:24] <Aue> Kk.
[18:35:51] <DragonAtma> remember, many op-related actions are discussed in staff-only channels
[18:36:06] <TashRikil> attacks follow the same rule as feeding, for the most part. we have a place for people to go to engage in the rough stuff. use it.
[18:36:25] <TashRikil> if you dont have permission, dont do it.
[18:37:58] <Aue> What about people which troll, fluff or cause disinformation? Like disbelievers, fanatics or people which lack the experience but don’t know about it.
[18:39:00] <DragonAtma> it depends on the incident
[18:39:21] <DragonAtma> They get talked to, but if someone does that enoguh, they get an enforced time-out.
[18:39:42] <TashRikil> it does. but it’s not hard to figure out. they disrespect others and they wont stop, they get banned.
[18:40:07] <Zajman> poking and mingling with psion that cannot defend (yet) like myself here , isnt that breaking the rules , and i even cannot locate yet who was doing it , got poked and scanned probably twice today here , without my permission :/ i know this is not the complaining class 🙂
[18:40:48] <Zajman> altho as always i cannot be 100 sure about it
[18:40:52] <TashRikil> scanning is not wrong unless it was followed by something else restricting you. scanning is not dangerous and it doesnt hurt you or restrict you in any way
[18:41:05] * DragonAtma nods
[18:41:30] <Zajman> ok , and pinging?
[18:41:41] <DragonAtma> scanning is like looking at someone. You don’t clal the cops when the guy down the street looks at you, do you? XD
[18:41:43] <Zajman> hell continue with the class
[18:41:51] <TashRikil> again. pinging doesnt mess with you. it’s ok to ping
[18:41:52] * Ephraim PONG!
[18:42:06] <Zajman> ok
[18:42:28] <TashRikil> if you’d like to be more private than you are currently you need to learn some techniques to deflect scans and pings
[18:42:31] <Aue> What about the tricky rules? Like when a person counter attacks but with far far greater side effects? And what about long-term subliminal influence?
[18:42:54] <Zajman> yea but when someone pulls out of my mind some stuff that i wanna keep private its a different stoty tho
[18:43:04] <TashRikil> if you punch someone in the face without notice and he pulls a shotgun and blows you away, i’m sorry but you had it coming.
[18:43:36] <TashRikil> when sparring, there is a time to stop
[18:43:53] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[18:43:56] <Forge> good
[18:44:00] <TashRikil> the time to stop is when the ref says, and the ref will call usually upon destruction of the shield, or enough piercing to make it useless.
[18:44:05] <Forge> i am glad you agree in that respect
[18:44:07] <DragonAtma> urging someone to continue when they need attention is NOT recommended.
[18:44:31] <Zajman> ugh
[18:44:36] <TashRikil> if the other is feeling physical pain in a spar, the spar is officially over right the hell then and there.
[18:44:54] <DragonAtma> And if you’re not able to tell whether someone needs attention or not, you’;re not ready for sparring
[18:45:02] <TashRikil> precisely.
[18:45:05] <DragonAtma> Remember, our goal is for people to get betetr without them getting hurt
[18:45:29] <DragonAtma> some people think “no pain, no gain”. We think “pain = no gain”.
[18:45:43] <TashRikil> you will not damage people’s energy bodies, even with their permission, unless it’s a life or death situation. and whatever your situation is, it probably isnt life or death.
[18:46:22] * DragonAtma tries to be an easygoing person, but there are some reules that have to be put down for safety reasons :/
[18:46:23] <Forge> what about sealing
[18:46:30] <TashRikil> broken shield, and/or physical pain, it’s time to stop. simple as red light on the street
[18:46:41] <TashRikil> ask me something specific about sealing.
[18:46:53] <Forge> sealing parts of the energetic body
[18:47:04] <DragonAtma> no forge, you’re not allowed to turn people uinto blubbery animals XD
[18:47:21] <Forge> well there goes most of my techniques
[18:48:08] <DragonAtma> seriously, though, it would depend on the seal
[18:48:26] <DragonAtma> sparring is for people to practice and get betetr without hurting each other
[18:48:38] <TashRikil> depends. are you stopping someone from hurting you? that is self defense. does the seal hurt them? that is an attack.
[18:48:50] <DragonAtma> so it’s more than possible to safely seal someone’s psionics for the spar
[18:48:52] <Forge> i only use disabling seals
[18:48:57] <DragonAtma> jsut make sure you cna unseal them afterwards XD
[18:49:12] <Forge> stop the flows of energy, stop the fight, no damage after removal
[18:49:21] <TashRikil> there’s nothing wrong with that.
[18:50:00] <TashRikil> but again, such techniques should only be used in self defense, or in sparring
[18:50:17] <Forge> thats what i use them for
[18:50:31] <TashRikil> in addition. there’s one more rule i’d like to impose.
[18:50:45] <TashRikil> you break it, you didnt buy it, but you WILL fix it.
[18:51:06] <TashRikil> that applies to the training room, the surroundings, AND your opponent.
[18:51:17] <DragonAtma> And if you can’t fix it, tell a staffer.
[18:51:39] <TashRikil> if you cant fix it yourself, or you cant fix it well enough, it’s your responsibility to find someone that can.
[18:51:43] <DragonAtma> If it’s a person, tell a staffer asap.
[18:51:51] <Aue> Whaaa? Fixing someones elsez energy body?
[18:51:58] <DragonAtma> aue: mmhmm
[18:52:02] <TashRikil> thats correct.
[18:52:42] <Forge> wait so
[18:52:47] <TashRikil> if you cant heal yourself get someone that can before the fight begins
[18:52:49] <Forge> stupid question
[18:53:12] <Forge> but does that mean i can do chakra removals in response to getting attacked
[18:55:23] <TashRikil> if you get attacked outside of a spar you are the psionic equivalent of being mugged. whatever happens to your opponent he deserves.
[18:56:10] <Forge> so it doesnt have to be limited to anything i can fix
[18:56:35] <TashRikil> however. sometimes attacks will happen subconsciously. please check, and see if it was an accident if possible.
[18:57:07] <TashRikil> and tell an op immediately. we do not want these things going on in here.
[18:57:38] * DragonAtma nods
[18:57:51] <DragonAtma> as the saying goes, don’t be a hero
[18:58:17] <DragonAtma> it’s the same reason that if you see two guys fighting with knives, you don’t get in there and break ’em up, you go to the nearest phone and dial 911.
[18:58:34] <TashRikil> it’s not that. it’s that i dont want to even think about this place breaking into a barroom brawl.
[18:58:43] <DragonAtma> that too
[18:59:08] <DragonAtma> PI is intended to be a safe place, not the fight club.
[18:59:14] <TashRikil> exactly.
[18:59:21] <TashRikil> we need to know.
[18:59:30] <DragonAtma> (first rule: you DO talk about psionics institute XD)
[18:59:37] <TashRikil> har har.
[19:00:05] <TashRikil> second rule: dont fake being attacked. we will find out and that REALLY pisses us off. me at least.
[19:00:12] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:00:32] <Forge> so should we just avoid any form of anything that could be deemed damage to the astral body when sparring
[19:00:46] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:00:56] <Forge> D:
[19:00:59] <TashRikil> in psionics the first rule is usually to ask what the hell just happened. but there are times, like when someone picks up a chair and swings it at you, that all bets are off.
[19:01:11] <DragonAtma> the goal is to get the other guy to admit defeat, NOT to leave the other guy broken in two
[19:01:29] <DragonAtma> Safety is a priority here.
[19:01:42] <TashRikil> damage to the energy body will happen in a spar. it’s a given. even the best shields will let some things through
[19:01:52] <DragonAtma> Especially since some people here aren’t as good at psionics as they think.
[19:02:29] <TashRikil> the point is that when the shields are failed or failing, a lot MORE damage will happen to the energy body, harming his training and causing him physical discomfort perhaps.
[19:02:40] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:02:52] <TashRikil> you’ve already won, there’s no need to cut his hand off and make a trophy.
[19:02:57] <DragonAtma> and it’s possible to cause damage that takes a while to require something
[19:03:01] <DragonAtma> err
[19:03:04] <DragonAtma> and it’s possible to cause damage that takes a while to require from
[19:03:33] <TashRikil> it’s quite possible. it will happen, just like in martial arts.
[19:03:39] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:04:26] <TashRikil> so if you hurt him, you will heal him too. if you’re no good at healing or dont know what’s wrong to begin with, get a staff member or preferably, have a ref on hand that can fix whatever damage you do.
[19:04:30] <DragonAtma> If you overdo it in martial arts, it’s possible to break someone’s arm by accident — and then the five extra miniutes of sparring is more than coutneracted by a month with their arm in a sling
[19:04:36] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:04:47] <Forge> the point isnt to mutilate the poor sod, its another disabling tactic.
[19:05:30] <TashRikil> that’s fine. no mutilation is the word you need to hear then.
[19:06:56] <TashRikil> if you are worried about what some of your techniques will do to someone, ask a staff member, or ask his permission to use them
[19:07:07] * DragonAtma nods
[19:07:15] <Forge> so no to chakra removals in spars
[19:07:30] <DragonAtma> chakra removal is not recommended
[19:07:50] <TashRikil> that borders on very serious pain inflicted.
[19:07:51] <DragonAtma> Especially if nobody’s available for healing
[19:08:07] <Forge> if you dont know what you are doing, yes
[19:08:19] <Forge> if you know what you are doing, they wont know what happened until they attempt to draw energy
[19:08:45] <DragonAtma> and if you don’t know what you’re doing, you won’t know that can’t fix it until you try to do so and it fails.
[19:09:31] <Forge> wat
[19:09:41] <Forge> you won’t know that can’t fix it?
[19:09:42] <TashRikil> if you cant fix it after a hard spar, or dont have someone there who can, you shouldnt do it in a spar.
[19:09:55] <Forge> oh
[19:09:58] <Forge> cool
[19:09:59] <DragonAtma> forge: it’s possible that someone thinks they can fix the chakra removal, but can’t
[19:10:01] <TashRikil> easy enough?
[19:10:10] <Forge> yeah
[19:10:30] <DragonAtma> so a total ban on chakra removal may be best for safety reasons.
[19:10:52] <Forge> this is something i dont have problems with, so if im available i dont see it being a problem
[19:11:01] <DragonAtma> there are a billion things you cna do in a spar; having a few be banned won’;t interfere much 😉
[19:11:15] <TashRikil> i dont think we should ban very much outright.
[19:11:33] <TashRikil> anything needs to be learned to be countered in a real fight.
[19:11:39] <DragonAtma> true
[19:11:51] <DragonAtma> but at the very least it should be limited to times when a PI-approved healer is on
[19:12:10] <TashRikil> so i will not ban anything outright. but if you cant fix it, or you dont have someone you know can right there watching the fight, dont do it.
[19:12:19] <DragonAtma> If someone winds up going twelve hours a chakra broken/missing, the fallout may be a lot logner than 12 hours.
[19:13:04] <TashRikil> *sighs* as you can see. even the most in tune ops can have some disagreements on the finer points of ethics.
[19:13:22] <TashRikil> which is why the general rules are so important.
[19:13:25] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:13:52] <TashRikil> here’s one big rule. if you dont know, or you’re unsure of which rule applies to a given situation, ask.
[19:14:15] <TashRikil> if the answer doesnt make sense, ask higher up the chain, or get them to do it for you.
[19:14:31] <DragonAtma> indeed
[19:14:43] <DragonAtma> not every op agrees with every other op 100%
[19:14:53] <TashRikil> no, nor will we.
[19:14:57] <DragonAtma> Especially when discussing politics XD
[19:15:16] <DragonAtma> But we’re usually on the same page.
[19:15:28] <TashRikil> generally.
[19:15:57] <TashRikil> i’m the head teacher. i’m pretty high up on the chain.
[19:16:29] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:17:06] <TashRikil> at the end of the day, Bmartin82 owns this server we mess around on. it’s his call. though most of that is delegated to Akradai and he will back her up.
[19:17:22] <DragonAtma> bmartin, adara, and ephraim are the big three
[19:18:17] * DragonAtma waves
[19:18:27] <TashRikil> i’m immediately below adara. atma’s mah homedraggy. 😛
[19:19:10] <Forge> >homedraggy
[19:19:11] <Forge> plsstop
[19:19:14] <DragonAtma> lol
[19:19:20] * Ryunaker chuckles.
[19:19:24] <Ephraim> heh
[19:19:41] <TashRikil> okay.
[19:20:13] <TashRikil> another good rule of thumb is, if you wouldnt like it done to you, ask before doing it to someone else.
[19:20:20] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:20:43] <TashRikil> we’re almost there guys. just a little longer.
[19:21:14] <TashRikil> now. rules specific to classroom and training grounds. i’m in charge of teaching, the buck stops with me.
[19:21:28] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:21:47] <TashRikil> we already covered if you mess it up, clean it up, or have someone on hand that can.
[19:23:15] <TashRikil> only approved PI teachers should be teaching classes in here. i make the approval process quick and easy so dont complain. you want in, ask.
[19:23:37] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:23:52] <TashRikil> unofficial teaching and learning happens everywhere all the time.
[19:23:56] <DragonAtma> tash is on often enough; if he’s not on, send him a memo
[19:24:09] <TashRikil> atma dont speak for me. i dont read memos.
[19:24:43] <DragonAtma> I didn’t realize thast
[19:24:46] <DragonAtma> sorry
[19:24:49] <TashRikil> well okay. you can use memoserv, but i dont like it
[19:25:20] <DragonAtma> alternately you can ask one of us to pass info on to tash, but our memory is not 100%.
[19:25:27] <TashRikil> my email is, i think, publically available on the forum. if i’m not here and it needs my attention and none of the other teachers will do, use it.
[19:26:16] <TashRikil> i prefer delegation. most issues dont need my direct judgement. usually the teachers are spot on about things
[19:26:46] <Zajman> did you sayd something about sigils ? whats the policy on that ? sorry for interrupting
[19:26:54] <TashRikil> but of course i’m here if there’s conflicting information, they dont know the answer, or you have a complaint about a teacher
[19:27:14] <TashRikil> no it’s fine. i dont think i’ve touched on sigils
[19:27:25] <TashRikil> please define sigil for me.
[19:27:34] <Zajman> ok give a sec
[19:27:40] <Ephraim> and side note, any and all complaints can come to me as i’m the Member Advocate 😀
[19:27:50] <Jonn> It is a thoughtform ’embedded’ in a symbol.
[19:28:04] <Jonn> Basically a thoughtform and a trigger.
[19:28:09] <Forge> a sigil is a level of sentience
[19:28:13] <Forge> its the lowest level
[19:28:28] <Forge> it is a trigger with a set command, thats about it
[19:28:29] <TashRikil> maybe that’s your def. as you can see, others have others. hence i asked Zajman and i will wait for his response. *SIGH*
[19:28:31] <Zajman> sigil : for me its a programmed self-affirmation embedded in a symbol , located in sub conscious , working all the time to achieve a precise goal
[19:28:41] * Jonn bows
[19:28:55] <TashRikil> not bad.
[19:29:00] <Jonn> Thank you.
[19:29:08] * DragonAtma nopds
[19:29:45] <TashRikil> normally, sigils are fine. i think the instance you are referring to is using them to plant a suggestion in other people’s minds?
[19:32:04] <Zajman> its like an oura that suggest people to act in a desired way when confronting with you , and its only a suggestion , its dim and it helps at first glance , but after couple minutes with a new person the effect wears off completly iirc
[19:33:15] <TashRikil> suggestions and misdirections are fine. this is the science, or the art rather, of the mind. faking each other out and getting into each others’ heads is what we DO.
[19:33:49] <Zajman> 🙂
[19:34:03] <TashRikil> you could take that to an illogical extreme and ask if it is ok to control another person’s mind this way.
[19:34:16] <TashRikil> of course it isnt, any more than brainwashing them is ok.
[19:34:39] * Ephraim nods
[19:34:40] <Forge> i see problems with that
[19:34:48] <Jonn> With brainwashing?
[19:34:54] <TashRikil> but. much like brainwashing, it’s really REALLY hard to do. so it wont be an issue for most people.
[19:34:56] <Forge> if it is detected it could easily be determined as an attack
[19:35:27] <Jonn> What’s your point? I agree with your statement, to be clear.
[19:35:40] <Zajman> sigils are very very subtle
[19:36:05] <Zajman> in my opinion of course
[19:36:05] <TashRikil> as far as attacks go, someone could mistake it for an attack
[19:36:08] <Forge> if he is using a sigil to control someones emotions or thought process, even a nudge, and it is detected, it could very easily be seen as an attack
[19:36:20] <TashRikil> but it would be fairly hard to do so, as it doesnt work in the same way at all.
[19:36:39] <Jonn> I have my opinions about what -could- be allowed to what extend, but Tash is the person in charge of the rules.
[19:36:55] <Zajman> nah you cannot control what a sigil controls , once its been designed its complete and you can only use it to that purpose
[19:37:06] <Forge> i am just seeing it from my perspective
[19:37:08] <Aue> Time for bed! Take care!
[19:37:13] <Jonn> Peace
[19:37:14] <Zajman> cya
[19:37:17] <DragonAtma> sleep well
[19:37:21] <Forge> if someone is trying to influence me with energy, i perceive it as an attack
[19:37:22] <TashRikil> guys the truth is it doesnt really work that way. it is very hard to violate someone else’s mind from anything other than a psychological basis.
[19:37:35] <TashRikil> it’s not an attack, forge.
[19:37:45] <TashRikil> unless it does something destructive to you.
[19:38:09] <Jonn> TPS might be subtle, but it might violate someone’s personal mind-space -shrugs-
[19:38:45] <Zajman> btw tash can i pm you after the class?
[19:38:48] <Forge> i see it as such, but thats my opinion
[19:38:52] <TashRikil> very hard to violate personal mindspace, as i said. general auras of be nice to me or something bad will happen to you dont qualify. 😛
[19:39:27] <TashRikil> yes Zajman. i’m happy to talk with you.
[19:39:42] <Jonn> Im judging from experience -shrugs- even if a person is illiterate in psionics, the subconscious will naturally try to protect you.
[19:39:51] <Zajman> you dont have even need to impose a threat in a sigil , you can make it positive just ” be nice to me ” and its all good
[19:40:11] <TashRikil> if you worry that you may be violating personal mindspace, announce what you are doing or what you have constructed, and ask opinions. you’ll get a lot of them, but having permission is important.
[19:41:00] <Jonn> In my opinion, if people are fine, Im fine.
[19:41:21] <TashRikil> let me just point out that influencing each others’ minds is exactly what we make it our business to do around here. so long as influence doesnt become an invasion or control, no harm is done.
[19:41:55] <Zajman> ok that closes the topic of sigils for me Tash 🙂
[19:42:22] <TashRikil> alright. some wide ranging questions tonight. good stuff guys.
[19:43:34] <TashRikil> okay. here’s something very specific i would like to touch on.
[19:43:45] <TashRikil> unofficial training and teaching
[19:43:51] <TashRikil> happens everywhere, all the time.
[19:44:06] <TashRikil> i’d be a fool to forbid it. we’re not the soviet military
[19:44:16] * DragonAtma nods
[19:45:19] <TashRikil> but, the teachers i have chosen are good at what they do, and are (mostly) morally upright.
[19:45:32] <TashRikil> i make the process easy to become a teacher on purpose.
[19:45:42] <Forge> >.>
[19:45:46] <TashRikil> i want everyone that can teach, to teach.
[19:46:35] * DragonAtma nods again
[19:47:54] <TashRikil> so if someone is not an official teacher, that means that they are either ignoring the wide ranging search i have been performing for teachers, unaware of it, or deliberately not a teacher.
[19:48:29] <TashRikil> if you get taught something unofficially, i cant and wont be responsible for what it contains.
[19:48:38] <TashRikil> thats not to say it isnt good. it might be.
[19:48:48] <TashRikil> but use your critical thinking circuits.
[19:49:15] <TashRikil> and please tell me about this person if they’re any good. i might want to bring them on.
[19:49:39] <TashRikil> or i might have something to say about them. you never know
[19:50:52] <TashRikil> if someone is teaching you unofficially and blatantly breaks some of the ethics i just laid down, you have my permission and my encouragement to be suspicious. please tell me about that.
[19:51:15] <DragonAtma> Keep in mind that some people don’t want to be teachers (just as I turned down being head trainer), but we;re the exception, not the rule.
[19:51:58] <TashRikil> i’m well aware of that. just because they’re not part of our clique doesnt mean that they arent the smartest and most upright person you’ve ever met.
[19:52:21] <TashRikil> but use your brains. that IS what we do here, right?
[19:52:39] <DragonAtma> mmhmm
[19:53:19] <TashRikil> and if they’re any good tell me about them. i really do want more teachers if we can get them
[19:53:52] <Zajman> first rule of the ethics should be like : be your first critic you encounter on your journey to psionics , and stay like that 😀
[19:54:33] <TashRikil> HAH! thats not a bad way to put it.
[19:55:40] <Zajman> and be aware that everyone here whos helping someone is sacrificing his time to do it , dont waste it and use it well 🙂
[19:55:44] <TashRikil> anyways, class is done. thank you for attending. we’ll get this posted in a big way.
[19:56:39] <TashRikil> you have a good way of putting things. i like that.
[19:56:58] <Zajman> i try my best Tash 🙂
[19:57:27] <TashRikil> oh, we got any more questions?
[19:58:39] <Zajman> out of topic question , will you have like 10 20 min afterwards this to talk ? Tash? if no i m gonna head to sleep
[19:58:54] <TashRikil> yeah i have time.
[19:59:01] <Zajman> k
[19:59:11] <TashRikil> anyone else?
[20:00:19] <TashRikil> alright. i’m cutting it here.

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